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Activate notificationGeneral » Poll: Too many pointless background vehicles?
Reminder of the previous message
Published 26/01/2007 @ 14:42:35, By LeboviciAB84
In response to LeboviciAB84's post, the question one needs to ask about this site is is it our purpose to list any car that ever passed in front of a camera lens in the field of commercial visual entertainment (films, television, videos, DVDs), no matter how minor it's appearance is, or to focus an cars that are used in films in an interesting way? I think truth is the site was originally meant for the latter, to look at cars that are used in an entertaining, interesting way in films, but it's becoming more and more comprehensive, now we listed almost any kind of free-roaming land vehicle (ie. not trains) that a person can use to travel in.
"you don't know what uses the database could be put to in future."
Well, what kind of purpose are you thinking of? I don't think this is meant to be a deeply academic site (although we do discuss and provide a lot of detailed automotive information) that's trying to examine the sociological influence of cars or trying to examine modern history by looking at cars, more of an entertaining movie vehicle encyclopedia for those who have a passion for cars. Am I right?
"you don't know what uses the database could be put to in future."
Well, what kind of purpose are you thinking of? I don't think this is meant to be a deeply academic site (although we do discuss and provide a lot of detailed automotive information) that's trying to examine the sociological influence of cars or trying to examine modern history by looking at cars, more of an entertaining movie vehicle encyclopedia for those who have a passion for cars. Am I right?
Well, the database can be used as light entertainment, just as an almanac or atlas can. But I certainly think it should be as rigorous as possible, otherwise it loses any claim to its sole purpose, which is as a list of onscreen vehicles that aspires towards being exhaustive. If we know that only, say, ninety per cent of cars will be accepted, then the database could lose a lot of its credibility. Besides, there is a lot of fun reading involved discussions about the identity of certain cars.
Of course the database itself isn't academic: it's a neutral resource that has no tone or style. Those arise from the different uses that the administrators are prepared to put it to: whether trivial, sociological or even just arising from a curious story in the film's production. And with a list of (theoretically) every onscreen vehicle of all time, surely there are hundreds of interesting ways to collate it, study it, pick out trends and oddities?
Published 26/01/2007 @ 16:56:07, By G-MANN
You do realise though if you took a film set in any big city (especially big American cities) and tried to list every single car possible you'd have hundreds of entries. I agree with antp in that having too many background vehicles overshadows the cars that actually used in the film.
One way I see this site is that it's like IMDB, but with cars instead of actors. The three and four stars cars are the main cast members, the two star cars and some background cars are bit players, backgrounds that gets into pile-ups are stunt players and most of the background cars are extras. Film don't list ALL the names of the extras in their credits for obvious reasons (we'll ignore all the real factors as to why some extras don't get listed because they aren't in industry unions etc. etc.)
One way I see this site is that it's like IMDB, but with cars instead of actors. The three and four stars cars are the main cast members, the two star cars and some background cars are bit players, backgrounds that gets into pile-ups are stunt players and most of the background cars are extras. Film don't list ALL the names of the extras in their credits for obvious reasons (we'll ignore all the real factors as to why some extras don't get listed because they aren't in industry unions etc. etc.)
Published 26/01/2007 @ 17:29:54, By antp
otherwise it loses any claim to its sole purpose, which is as a list of onscreen vehicles that aspires towards being exhaustive.
The purpose is to list cars that have a role in movie, as I said previously. The background cars is a "bonus".
Published 26/01/2007 @ 22:55:05, By valiant1962
What about pictures of cars that aren't physically in the film, just a picture of a picture. http://www.imcdb.org/vehicle_70535-BMW-Isetta.html
Published 27/01/2007 @ 00:55:04, By sixcyl
L’opprobre semble être jetée sur Sixcyl , on dirait ! nommément ou pas , mais il y a une poignée d’admin. ici bas qui en veulent à ses manières ! …certes, je ne suis pas le seul visé, mais quand même!
Alors, je resitue un peu les choses de mon point de vue… J’adore IMCDB et je crois qu’elle me le rend bien, je n’ai jamais regardé autant de films quotidiennement depuis plus d’un an que je participe à cette belle oeuvre… J’aime le cinéma, j’aime les voitures, j’aime les acteurs et les actrices (oh oui) qui s’y produisent sous la coupe de maîtres, grands ou moins grands, de la mise en scène cinématographique…
Tout cela est un plaisir, non une corvée… j’observe les films avec un œil nouveau qui me conduit à capturer toute image de ce qui roule sur route dans le temps d’un film (et quelques extras comme les avions, trains , bateaux… et les poitrines des actrices …ahah).
Cette démarche est un réel plaisir pour moi, et je poste les images que je pense utiles au site et qui me sont agréable à présenter, avec générosité car je ne suis jamais chiche de photos d’appoint en « thumbnail » sur un modèle listé.
Les véhicules d’arrière plan sont tout aussi importants pour moi que les autres, car ils demandent une attention particulière et plus de travail que lorsqu’on se limite aux véhicules ayant un réel rôle dans le film… D’autre part, je trouve qu’ils présentent un intérêt au même titre que l’ensemble des décors utilisés pour faire un film…or si nous n’allons pas parler des cafetières, des cendriers, des machines à écrire, des halls d’entrées ...ou que sais-je encore, IMCDB n’est il pas l’endroit idoine pour présenter les voitures d’arrière plan qui participent à ces décors ? … c’est ma manière de rendre hommage au travail du réalisateur, et je ris un peu de ceux qui crient au sacrilège de voir un véhicule d’arrière plan recoupé et zoomé peu visible sur la photo d’origine et que d’ailleurs eux-mêmes n’auraient peut-être pas vu !
Cette attitude, je ne l’exige de personne, et je souhaite que chacun fasse à sa manière même si elle a pour avantage de ne jamais risquer manquer la perle rare, le véhicule qui ne se trouve pas « sous le sabot d’un cheval »…cet instant un peu jubilatoire se trouve amplifié lorsque d’inconnue elle passe au statut d’identifiée par un d’entre nous ! …c’est tout con, mais c’est mon plaisir !
Par ailleurs, et pour compléter mon argument en faveur des voitures d’arrière plan, je ne vois aucun mal à lister, en choisissant la meilleure photo, une banale Checker Marathon taxi, une Simca 1000 , une Fiat 600 , une Austin Mini ou une Mercédès qui apparaîtraient même un peu éloignées, 2,5 ou 10 fois dans un même film ?… car de mon point de vue, elles font substance dans le décors et pour le sujet qui nous intéresse, et donc, ont leur place dans la fiche film.
Oui mon credo m’incline à tendre à l’exhaustivité, et à une approche (en image) comme l’exemplaire compte rendu fait du film « Le salaire de la peur » de H.G Clouzot sur le site XXXX , où tout,et strictement tous les véhicules sont décrits (j’avoue moi-même que 1 ou 2 m’ont échappés )….
Pour autant, et que l’on se méprennent pas comme certains semblent le faire, les images n’ayant du sens que lorsque elles sont visibles, je ne mets évidemment pas tout en ligne et un bon nombre de captures que j’ai réalisées n’ont jamais été listées pour des véhicule vraiment trop flous, déformés, non indentifiables. L’exhaustivité n’est donc pas envisageable pour tous les films, loin s’en faut !
Bref, tout est une question de curseur sur l’échelle des valeurs et de libre arbitre en fonction de ses propres critères dans le cadre général actuel fixé sur IMCDB .
Cependant, je soutiens « mordicus » que les choix et le « travail » de chacun doivent respectés comme l’espace de liberté, condition « sine qua non » de nos contributions volontaires et bénévoles …
J’apporte ma modeste contribution à l’identification de certaines fiches, à la mise en ligne de certains films, avec une « touche » personnelle qu’on ne m’enlèvera pas et qui semble gêner une poignée d’administrateurs qui a mon sens seraient plus utiles à chercher à identifier certains véhicules plutôt qu’à chipoter sur les procédés utilisés par d’autres dans cette activité.
Ma façon de faire et mes choix n’auront jamais plus d’incidence que le temps passé forcément limité (j’ai une vie en dehors de IMCDB même si une part de mon temps libre est capté par ce site), noyé dans l’océan de centaines et centaines de milliers de film que l’histoire du cinéma peu compter, une goutte d’eau par conséquent !!!
Je vote NON (bien posée la question= le OUI pour moi , le NON pour l’adversaire …comme en politique ahah)
Alors, je resitue un peu les choses de mon point de vue… J’adore IMCDB et je crois qu’elle me le rend bien, je n’ai jamais regardé autant de films quotidiennement depuis plus d’un an que je participe à cette belle oeuvre… J’aime le cinéma, j’aime les voitures, j’aime les acteurs et les actrices (oh oui) qui s’y produisent sous la coupe de maîtres, grands ou moins grands, de la mise en scène cinématographique…
Tout cela est un plaisir, non une corvée… j’observe les films avec un œil nouveau qui me conduit à capturer toute image de ce qui roule sur route dans le temps d’un film (et quelques extras comme les avions, trains , bateaux… et les poitrines des actrices …ahah).
Cette démarche est un réel plaisir pour moi, et je poste les images que je pense utiles au site et qui me sont agréable à présenter, avec générosité car je ne suis jamais chiche de photos d’appoint en « thumbnail » sur un modèle listé.
Les véhicules d’arrière plan sont tout aussi importants pour moi que les autres, car ils demandent une attention particulière et plus de travail que lorsqu’on se limite aux véhicules ayant un réel rôle dans le film… D’autre part, je trouve qu’ils présentent un intérêt au même titre que l’ensemble des décors utilisés pour faire un film…or si nous n’allons pas parler des cafetières, des cendriers, des machines à écrire, des halls d’entrées ...ou que sais-je encore, IMCDB n’est il pas l’endroit idoine pour présenter les voitures d’arrière plan qui participent à ces décors ? … c’est ma manière de rendre hommage au travail du réalisateur, et je ris un peu de ceux qui crient au sacrilège de voir un véhicule d’arrière plan recoupé et zoomé peu visible sur la photo d’origine et que d’ailleurs eux-mêmes n’auraient peut-être pas vu !
Cette attitude, je ne l’exige de personne, et je souhaite que chacun fasse à sa manière même si elle a pour avantage de ne jamais risquer manquer la perle rare, le véhicule qui ne se trouve pas « sous le sabot d’un cheval »…cet instant un peu jubilatoire se trouve amplifié lorsque d’inconnue elle passe au statut d’identifiée par un d’entre nous ! …c’est tout con, mais c’est mon plaisir !
Par ailleurs, et pour compléter mon argument en faveur des voitures d’arrière plan, je ne vois aucun mal à lister, en choisissant la meilleure photo, une banale Checker Marathon taxi, une Simca 1000 , une Fiat 600 , une Austin Mini ou une Mercédès qui apparaîtraient même un peu éloignées, 2,5 ou 10 fois dans un même film ?… car de mon point de vue, elles font substance dans le décors et pour le sujet qui nous intéresse, et donc, ont leur place dans la fiche film.
Oui mon credo m’incline à tendre à l’exhaustivité, et à une approche (en image) comme l’exemplaire compte rendu fait du film « Le salaire de la peur » de H.G Clouzot sur le site XXXX , où tout,et strictement tous les véhicules sont décrits (j’avoue moi-même que 1 ou 2 m’ont échappés )….
Pour autant, et que l’on se méprennent pas comme certains semblent le faire, les images n’ayant du sens que lorsque elles sont visibles, je ne mets évidemment pas tout en ligne et un bon nombre de captures que j’ai réalisées n’ont jamais été listées pour des véhicule vraiment trop flous, déformés, non indentifiables. L’exhaustivité n’est donc pas envisageable pour tous les films, loin s’en faut !
Bref, tout est une question de curseur sur l’échelle des valeurs et de libre arbitre en fonction de ses propres critères dans le cadre général actuel fixé sur IMCDB .
Cependant, je soutiens « mordicus » que les choix et le « travail » de chacun doivent respectés comme l’espace de liberté, condition « sine qua non » de nos contributions volontaires et bénévoles …
J’apporte ma modeste contribution à l’identification de certaines fiches, à la mise en ligne de certains films, avec une « touche » personnelle qu’on ne m’enlèvera pas et qui semble gêner une poignée d’administrateurs qui a mon sens seraient plus utiles à chercher à identifier certains véhicules plutôt qu’à chipoter sur les procédés utilisés par d’autres dans cette activité.
Ma façon de faire et mes choix n’auront jamais plus d’incidence que le temps passé forcément limité (j’ai une vie en dehors de IMCDB même si une part de mon temps libre est capté par ce site), noyé dans l’océan de centaines et centaines de milliers de film que l’histoire du cinéma peu compter, une goutte d’eau par conséquent !!!
Je vote NON (bien posée la question= le OUI pour moi , le NON pour l’adversaire …comme en politique ahah)
Published 27/01/2007 @ 01:03:25, By sixcyl
XXXX = http://camionclubdefrance.a.free.fr/Salaire_peur.php
..désolé c'est en français
..désolé c'est en français
Published 27/01/2007 @ 01:35:20, By sixcyl
translation, with Babelfish ... sorry, but I didn't feel like to do it myself ..too late !
The opprobrium seems to be thrown on Sixcyl, one would say! nommémment or not, but there is a handle of admin. here low which wants some with its manners! ... certainly, I am not only aimed, but nevertheless! Then, I put in perspective a little the things from my point of view... I adore IMCDB and I believe that it returns it well to me, I never looked at as many films daily since more than one year that I take part in this beautiful work... I like the cinema, I like the cars, I love the actors and the actresses (oh yes) who occur there under the cut of Masters, large or less large, of the setting in cinematographic scene... All that is a pleasure, not a drudgery... I observe films with a new eye which leads me to capture any image of what rolls on road in the time of a film (and some will extras like the planes, trains, boats... and the chests of the actresses... ahah). This step is a real pleasure for me, and I post the images which I think useful for the site and which are pleasant for me to present, with generosity because I am never scanty auxiliary photographs in "thumbnail" on a listed model. The vehicles of background are quite as important for me that others, because they ask a detailed attention and more work than when one limits oneself to the vehicles having a real role in film... In addition, I find that they are of an interest as well as the whole of the decorations used to make a film... if we will not speak about the coffee machines, the ashtrays, the typewriters, of the halls... or what else, is not IMCDB the suitable place to present the cars of background which take part in these decorations? ... it is my manner of paying homage to the work of the realizer, and I laugh a little those which shout with the sacrilege to see a vehicle of background cut and zoomed not very visible on the photograph of origin and that besides themselves would perhaps not have seen! This attitude, I do not require it of anybody, and I wish that each one make with its manner even if it has the advantage of never not risking to miss the rare pearl, the vehicle which is not "under the shoe of a horse"... this moment a little jubilatoire is amplified when from unknown factor it passes to the statute of identified by one among us! ... it is very idiot, but it is my pleasure! In addition, and to supplement my argument in favour of the cars of background, I do not see any evil to be listed, by choosing the best photograph, banal Checker Marathon taxi, Simca 1000, a FIAT 600, Austin Mini or Mercédès which would appear even a little distant, 2,5 or 10 times in the same film?... because from my point of view, they make substance in the decorations and for the subject which interests us, and thus, have their place in the card film. Yes my creed inclines me to tend to exhaustiveness, and an approach (in image) like the specimen report made of film "the wages of the fear" of H.G Clouzot on site XXXX, where all, and strictly all the vehicles are described (I acknowledge myself that 1 or 2 has escaped me).... For as much, and that one do not mistake as some seem to do it, the images having direction only when they are visible, I do not put obviously all on line and a good number of captures which I carried out were never listed for vehicle really too fuzzy, deformed, not indentifiables. Exhaustiveness is thus not possible for all films, far is necessary some! In short, all is a question of cursor about the scale of values and of free will according to his own criteria within the current general framework fixed about IMCDB. However, I support "mordicus" that the choices and the "work" of each one must respected as the space of freedom, "sine qua non" condition of our voluntary contributions... I contribute my modest share to the identification of certain cards, with the setting in line of certain films, with a personal "key" that me will not be removed and who seems to obstruct a handle of administrators who, up tome, would be more useful to seek to identify certain vehicles rather than to haggle over the processes used by others in this activity. My way of making and my choices will never have again incidence than time spent inevitably limited (I have a life apart from IMCDB even if a share of my spare time is collected by this site), drowned in the ocean of hundreds and hundreds of thousands of film that the history of the cinema to count little, a water drop consequently!!! I vote NOT (the question is well asked = YES for me, NOT for the adversary... as in politics ... ahah)
The opprobrium seems to be thrown on Sixcyl, one would say! nommémment or not, but there is a handle of admin. here low which wants some with its manners! ... certainly, I am not only aimed, but nevertheless! Then, I put in perspective a little the things from my point of view... I adore IMCDB and I believe that it returns it well to me, I never looked at as many films daily since more than one year that I take part in this beautiful work... I like the cinema, I like the cars, I love the actors and the actresses (oh yes) who occur there under the cut of Masters, large or less large, of the setting in cinematographic scene... All that is a pleasure, not a drudgery... I observe films with a new eye which leads me to capture any image of what rolls on road in the time of a film (and some will extras like the planes, trains, boats... and the chests of the actresses... ahah). This step is a real pleasure for me, and I post the images which I think useful for the site and which are pleasant for me to present, with generosity because I am never scanty auxiliary photographs in "thumbnail" on a listed model. The vehicles of background are quite as important for me that others, because they ask a detailed attention and more work than when one limits oneself to the vehicles having a real role in film... In addition, I find that they are of an interest as well as the whole of the decorations used to make a film... if we will not speak about the coffee machines, the ashtrays, the typewriters, of the halls... or what else, is not IMCDB the suitable place to present the cars of background which take part in these decorations? ... it is my manner of paying homage to the work of the realizer, and I laugh a little those which shout with the sacrilege to see a vehicle of background cut and zoomed not very visible on the photograph of origin and that besides themselves would perhaps not have seen! This attitude, I do not require it of anybody, and I wish that each one make with its manner even if it has the advantage of never not risking to miss the rare pearl, the vehicle which is not "under the shoe of a horse"... this moment a little jubilatoire is amplified when from unknown factor it passes to the statute of identified by one among us! ... it is very idiot, but it is my pleasure! In addition, and to supplement my argument in favour of the cars of background, I do not see any evil to be listed, by choosing the best photograph, banal Checker Marathon taxi, Simca 1000, a FIAT 600, Austin Mini or Mercédès which would appear even a little distant, 2,5 or 10 times in the same film?... because from my point of view, they make substance in the decorations and for the subject which interests us, and thus, have their place in the card film. Yes my creed inclines me to tend to exhaustiveness, and an approach (in image) like the specimen report made of film "the wages of the fear" of H.G Clouzot on site XXXX, where all, and strictly all the vehicles are described (I acknowledge myself that 1 or 2 has escaped me).... For as much, and that one do not mistake as some seem to do it, the images having direction only when they are visible, I do not put obviously all on line and a good number of captures which I carried out were never listed for vehicle really too fuzzy, deformed, not indentifiables. Exhaustiveness is thus not possible for all films, far is necessary some! In short, all is a question of cursor about the scale of values and of free will according to his own criteria within the current general framework fixed about IMCDB. However, I support "mordicus" that the choices and the "work" of each one must respected as the space of freedom, "sine qua non" condition of our voluntary contributions... I contribute my modest share to the identification of certain cards, with the setting in line of certain films, with a personal "key" that me will not be removed and who seems to obstruct a handle of administrators who, up tome, would be more useful to seek to identify certain vehicles rather than to haggle over the processes used by others in this activity. My way of making and my choices will never have again incidence than time spent inevitably limited (I have a life apart from IMCDB even if a share of my spare time is collected by this site), drowned in the ocean of hundreds and hundreds of thousands of film that the history of the cinema to count little, a water drop consequently!!! I vote NOT (the question is well asked = YES for me, NOT for the adversary... as in politics ... ahah)
Published 27/01/2007 @ 08:00:31, By philr
Tout comme les noms des figurants qui apparaissent aux génériques, je crois qu'il est souhaitable et pertinent de nommer le plus possible de véhicules figurants. Parfois, je regarde un film européen et j'ignore le modèle d'une certaine voiture qu'on voit brièvement. Si elle est listée sur ce site, ça va me permettre de l'identifier!
Voici un autre exemple où une voiture peu visible peut être d'un certain intérêt:
http://www.imcdb.org/vehicle.php?id=79685
La dernière photo que j'ai envoyée montre une Buick Skylark des années 1980 dans un film dont l'action se situe en 1975. Pour moi, c'est un anachronisme qui mérite d'être mentionné.
I think that background cars should be listed. Here's why, sometimes when I watch a european movie, I see a car briefly and I'm wondering what it is. If the movie has been posted to this site, I'd appreciate finding information on that particular car.
And here's another reason.
The last picture I sent on this link
http://www.imcdb.org/vehicle.php?id=79685
shows a car from the eighties very far in the background. Since the action is suopposed to take place in 1975, I think it's an interesting detail to note, just like goofs on the IMDB website.
Latest Edition: 29/01/2007 @ 18:12:24
Voici un autre exemple où une voiture peu visible peut être d'un certain intérêt:
http://www.imcdb.org/vehicle.php?id=79685
La dernière photo que j'ai envoyée montre une Buick Skylark des années 1980 dans un film dont l'action se situe en 1975. Pour moi, c'est un anachronisme qui mérite d'être mentionné.
I think that background cars should be listed. Here's why, sometimes when I watch a european movie, I see a car briefly and I'm wondering what it is. If the movie has been posted to this site, I'd appreciate finding information on that particular car.
And here's another reason.
The last picture I sent on this link
http://www.imcdb.org/vehicle.php?id=79685
shows a car from the eighties very far in the background. Since the action is suopposed to take place in 1975, I think it's an interesting detail to note, just like goofs on the IMDB website.
Latest Edition: 29/01/2007 @ 18:12:24
Published 28/01/2007 @ 20:16:37, By G-MANN
What about pictures of cars that aren't physically in the film, just a picture of a picture. http://www.imcdb.org/vehicle_70535-BMW-Isetta.html
Stuff like that should be restricted to the comments section.
Published 29/01/2007 @ 14:13:16, By G-MANN
29 votes have been collected, so have nearly all the regulars voted?
Published 29/01/2007 @ 15:46:56, By antp
Anyway there won't by any "change" in the rules (as there are no fixed rules): for me the "too background cars" were never "allowed", it is just that for some time nobody was really saying anything about them (except me sometimes, and I was just not listened 
)
It should rather be a reminder of what has its place on the site and what has not. The question is what to do, as not all members/admins have the same point of view about that?
Latest Edition: 29/01/2007 @ 15:48:11
)It should rather be a reminder of what has its place on the site and what has not. The question is what to do, as not all members/admins have the same point of view about that?
Latest Edition: 29/01/2007 @ 15:48:11
Published 29/01/2007 @ 15:58:03, By G-MANN
I think at least the contributor should give a decent reason for posting a background car if it doesn't seem to fit the obvious criteria (rareness/interest value/relevance to the action/well visible) otherwise maybe it just isn't worth posting. The thing is some people aren't interested in being more descrimate and don't want to change.
Published 30/01/2007 @ 18:22:14, By G-MANN
Do you think the poll is pretty much finished now? Maybe now you can take down the notice from the site's main page.
I have to admit I'm suprised so many people voted "no", even if they are outnumbered by the people who voted "yes".
I have to admit I'm suprised so many people voted "no", even if they are outnumbered by the people who voted "yes".
Published 30/01/2007 @ 21:45:06, By antp
Well, we can wait one or two days, some members do not come every day
Published 31/01/2007 @ 02:26:57, By DAF555
Work has been eating my time for the last month, so I havn´t been here at all.
I´ve read through most comments on the subject now and I voted YES.
But only since I believe there are too many blurry and small/distant vehicles listed. The amount of background vehicles doesn´t really matter as long as the captures are good, in my opinion. Even if it´s a background vehicle and maybe just a part of it, the details shown might be of great interest for the enthusiast restoring a car like that. Just as an example.
So I belive they fill a purpose from the view of the auto historian. If you don´t want to see them, there´s always the possibility to make a sorting of the stars.
And it´s good to have the debate to try to find some consensus on what´s worth listing since it´s not always easy to draw the line.
There have been comments on cropping and such of the captures, I believe that as far as possible the capture should be left in full size. At least on the main picture.
But for identifying purposes a collage with parts from different angles like Ralph does, or these with contrasts, are very good. But I think they should be put in the comments.
I´ve read through most comments on the subject now and I voted YES.
But only since I believe there are too many blurry and small/distant vehicles listed. The amount of background vehicles doesn´t really matter as long as the captures are good, in my opinion. Even if it´s a background vehicle and maybe just a part of it, the details shown might be of great interest for the enthusiast restoring a car like that. Just as an example.
So I belive they fill a purpose from the view of the auto historian. If you don´t want to see them, there´s always the possibility to make a sorting of the stars.
And it´s good to have the debate to try to find some consensus on what´s worth listing since it´s not always easy to draw the line.
There have been comments on cropping and such of the captures, I believe that as far as possible the capture should be left in full size. At least on the main picture.
But for identifying purposes a collage with parts from different angles like Ralph does, or these with contrasts, are very good. But I think they should be put in the comments.
Published 31/01/2007 @ 10:35:42, By valiant1962
I think DAF has put it exactly right